Sunday, 26 June 2022

50th Anniversary of London Underground’s Bakerloo Line Trains

Today marks the 50th anniversary of the Bakerloo line trains on the London Underground. Introduced on 26th June 1972.

The trains have a complicated history — because this is the London Underground and nothing is ever simple. And the Bakerloo line trains owe their existence to, of all things, the extension of the Piccadilly line to Heathrow Airport in the 1970s.

Read the article from Ian Visits website here

Saturday, 25 June 2022

Setra News



Limited access to the internet today so here's a link to news about Setra testing the next generation of ComfortClass and TopClass coaches

https://www.busworldeurope.org/news/setra-testing-next-generation-comfortclass-and-topclass

or click here

Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible! 

DG

Friday, 24 June 2022

ADL Supplies New Plaxton Panther Coach to Scottish Operator Hunters Executive Coaches

Alexander Dennis (Alexander Dennis Limited, “ADL”) has announced that it has delivered a brand new Plaxton Panther coach to Scottish operator Hunters Executive Coaches.



The vehicle is the first of two Plaxton Panthers to be delivered to the business, with the second vehicle due to be delivered later this year.

The coach – built on a Volvo B8R chassis – has a Euro VI engine and an I-Shift transmission. It has alloy wheels, is fitted with 53 seats and has a toilet mounted at the continental door in the centre of the vehicle.




There are also a range of on-board customer features including extendable seats, air-conditioning, a smart radio and DVD player and USB charging points.

Clackmannanshire-based Hunters Executive Coaches has been providing coach services for over twenty years and has grown to one of the largest private coach hire companies in Scotland.

Director Julie Jack, who runs the business with her father John Hunter, said: “We are delighted to add another high quality, comfortable coach to our fleet. We’re committed to providing the best possible service, and vehicles, to our customers and this new coach will further help us achieve that.”

Charlie Miller, Alexander Dennis Senior Regional Sales Manager, added: “It’s been great working with John, Julie and the team to deliver another fantastic coach for their fleet. We have a second coach to deliver to the business soon and we look forward to working with them again in the future.”

Hunters website here

Thursday, 23 June 2022

Iveco Electrics With Pantograph Charging


Iveco Bus has delivered two 12-metre E-WAY to the public company Marprom for the city of Maribor (Slovenia). They are equipped for fast charging.

The vehicles will travel between new electric charging stations installed in the city of Maribor along the busiest line, No. 6.



The two fast charging stations operate with top-down pantographs, one at the central bus station and the other at the terminal of the route,

Read the article here

Wednesday, 22 June 2022

Nine More Abandoned Rail Lines Receive Funding for Restoration

Due to limited resources, there's only a link to news today, covering the award of early-stage development funding to the following projects

  • Aldridge station and line upgrade in Walsall
  • The Barrow Hill Line between Sheffield and Chesterfield
  • The Ivanhoe Line between Leicester and Burton on Trent
  • Meir Station between Stoke-on-Trent and North Staffordshire
  • Haxby Station on the York to Scarborough Line
  • Reinstating the Fleetwood Railway Line
  • Ferryhill Station in County Durham
  • The Mid Cornwall Metro, connecting Newquay, Truro and Falmouth
  • Devizes Station between Pewsey and Westbury in Wiltshire

click here to read the article



Normal Service will be resumed ASAP

Tuesday, 21 June 2022

Neepsend Model Railway Society Video

Well Chuffed Railways have shown 'Effingham' the Neepsend Model Railway Society's massive layout on YouTube.



Don't forget to click 'Like'


For more info on the society please visit www.neepsendmrs.weebly.com  


Monday, 20 June 2022

Switch Mobility Ltd. launches All New, ‘SWITCH e1’ 12m Bus

Switch Mobility Ltd (‘Switch’), has unveiled the new, 4th generation SWITCH e1 bus. The SWITCH e1, a fully electric bus tailored to the European market.

At 12m long, the SWITCH e1 is the company’s first fully electric bus designed specifically for Europe.



Developed based on 10 years of EV bus experience in U.K. and India and over 30 million driven miles, SWITCH e1 raises the standards of quality and performance in the segment ;

Boasting a monocoque design, the SWITCH e1 is one of the lightest 12m buses in Europe at less than 10,800kg, coupled with a range of around 390km from a 389KWh battery

Advanced NMC battery technology provides a lighter weight and higher density solution than conventional LFP batteries, delivering a lower total cost of ownership

The SWITCH e1 will be manufactured at the company’s new manufacturing and technical centre in Valladolid, Spain.

Launched at the European Mobility Expo, the SWITCH e1 combines a lightweight monocoque construction with advanced NMC battery technology to create a truly market-leading product.   
Fast charging is achieved in under 3 hours and A/C charging in 7 hours. The SWITCH e1 also benefits from Switch’s market-leading technology including iAlert, enabling remote, real-time diagnostics and monitoring services, as well as world-class digital battery management tools.

Designed with a focus on passenger comfort, the vehicle is adaptable and boasts a flexible seating layout which has been engineered to enable easy ingress and egress. With capacity for up to 93 passengers – including up to 30 seated, passengers will ride in comfort with a contemporary and open interior design, reading lights, under seat lights, USB ports and a wide-screen monitor including a “next five stops” feature and information on nearby local public transport. 


The interior layout and ultra-low floor throughout improves wheelchair access which is available through both the front and middle doors, a unique feature within this segment. Passengers and drivers benefit from double skin heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) ducts, directing airflow towards the occupants, reducing wastage, and increasing efficiency.

Developing the SWITCH e1 as a completely new product has also enabled the latest driver aids and safety features to be integrated. Electronic Stability Control and the Electronic Braking System provide a confident driving experience whilst blind spot monitoring, collision detection and lane departure warning will maximise safety for drivers and passengers alike.

Speaking on the occasion, Dheeraj Hinduja, Chairman of Switch Mobility, said: The Hinduja Group and Ashok Leyland are committed to providing zero carbon mobility through Switch. Today is a significant milestone for us, with the launch of our first European Bus. Switch is dedicated to the development of new electric buses and light vehicles for multiple geographies and price points including, Europe, UK, India and elsewhere that will be launched over the next few months.”

Andy Palmer, Vice Chairman and CEO of Switch Mobility Ltd, said:“We are proud to continue innovating the sector with not only one of the lightest widely available buses in Europe, but our first fully electric bus designed specifically for the European market. 
The SWITCH e1 is the result of learning from the 30 million electric miles our buses have covered, delivering a state-of-the-art transport solution designed with a customer first mindset. Switch continues to enable cities to meet net zero targets, allow operators to maximise efficiency whilst minimising costs and ensure drivers and passengers experience unrivalled comfort."

Creating a zero-carbon future with the next generation of buses

As a sustainable carbon neutral certified manufacturer, the first global bus and light commercial vehicle manufacturer to achieve this accolade, Switch assists cities in reaching true net zero emissions. Switch has saved over 5 million tonnes of CO2 from its Metrodecker buses and its Metrocity, the first British built, pure electric bus to enter service in London continues to be one of the most efficient products on the market.

The SWITCH e1 is the next step in zero-emission buses and builds on Switch’s ambition for a next-generation fleet. The SWITCH e1 is adaptable to any city to ensure fleets can be decarbonised, with customisable batteries to fit the desired range and modular roof-mounting for future expansion needs.


Sunday, 19 June 2022

New South of England home for Alexander Dennis as new Trident House facility opens in Farnborough

Alexander Dennis (Alexander Dennis Limited, “ADL”), has announced that the company has officially opened its new Trident House facility in Farnborough.

Trident House is the latest state-of-the-art facility from Alexander Dennis, the UK’s largest
bus and coach manufacturer.



The new facility will be critical to taking forward the company’s new product development

agenda and zero emission mobility ambitions, with the innovative hub housing experts from

across the business in engineering and test and development, as well as other key business

teams who will underpin future success for the company.

Trident House takes its name from the iconic Dennis Trident low floor chassis, which

revolutionised accessible double deck buses in the UK and across the globe in the 1990s.


Legacy preservation was a key consideration in the design of the facility, which will

additionally have a museum honouring the heritage of the Dennis brand and the people,

knowledge, passion and expertise it encompasses.

To mark the start of a new era for Alexander Dennis, Trident House was officially opened by

Paul Soubry, NFI President and CEO at a company-wide ribbon cutting ceremony.

Alexander Dennis President and Managing Director Paul Davies said: “Our people are our

most precious resource and even in these very challenging times, we have invested in

creating a modern, bright working environment to benefit our valued team members, providing them with the space, support and services they require to be able to do their jobs

to the very best of their abilities.



“Trident House underlines our commitment to the UK market and to the recruitment and

retention of the essential highly skilled jobs that will underpin the transition to zero emission

mobility.

“We are incredibly proud of our history with Dennis having been established in 1895. Trident

House is a positive reinvigoration of the Dennis brand which always has been synonymous

with chassis innovation and engineering expertise. Our heritage and proven track record will

play an important part in continued our business growth, both domestically and

internationally, as well as providing a strong differentiator for Alexander Dennis compared to

new market entrants.”

Saturday, 18 June 2022

First Group Signs National Rail Contract for GWR

FirstGroup plc has signed a Direct Award with the Department for Transport (‘DfT’) to continue operating Great Western Railway (‘GWR’) services from when the Direct Award under which services are currently being operated comes to an end.


The agreement runs until 31 March 2023, with a possible extension of up to one further year at the DfT’s discretion. The agreement ensures continuity of operation and will run concurrently with the DfT’s previously announced Emergency Measures Agreement (‘EMA’) for at least the first six months. 

FirstGroup’s experience of managing the route over many years will be crucial to restoring the service to full operation once the immediate crisis has abated, and will facilitate the ongoing transformation of GWR, through the biggest changes to the network in a generation.



The announcement provides continuity for customers, employees and other stakeholders beyond the period of emergency measures currently proposed, as well as an appropriate balance of risk and reward between FirstGroup and the Government, supported by a contractual Forecast Revenue Mechanism (‘FRM’) which eliminates the majority of the revenue risk. 
GWR will build on the improvements it has delivered to services over the past five years, with a focus on connecting people and local communities looking to restore normality when the present restrictions on travel due to the coronavirus pandemic are over.


The agreement has a strong emphasis on improving regional connectivity, helping customers return to the railway by making rail a more convenient and environmentally-friendly way to travel. As part of this, GWR will bring additional trains into service to provide thousands of extra seats on regional routes across the network.

There will also be increased funding to improve services for local communities and at stations, and the introduction of a combination of new flexible ticket products for customers who do not commute to work every day, such as discounted part-time season tickets and the extension of paperless pay-as-you-go schemes.


Since 2015, GWR has successfully delivered new fleets of modern intercity and local trains comprising 785 new carriages, and introduced faster, more frequent services for customers across the network through the successful introduction of the largest timetable change in decades last December. 
GWR recently posted some of its highest ever passenger satisfaction scores and delivered the most improved punctuality scores in the UK last year.

Commenting, Matthew Gregory, FirstGroup Chief Executive, said:

“Whilst the immediate focus of GWR is to ensure that key workers, vital to the country’s response to coronavirus, can get to where they need to go, continuity of rail services will also be critical to a restoration of normal life when the present uncertain and difficult situation is overcome. In the longer term this new agreement will mean that customers can return to rail as their preferred choice of travel; with more seats, more services, better stations and more flexible ticketing to help reconnect the people and communities we serve.


“When the present emergency measures agreed with Government come to an end, today’s agreement will ensure that GWR will continue to deliver sustainable benefits for customers and an appropriate balance of risk and reward for our shareholders and the Government. 

We are proud of GWR’s achievements over the last few years, working with industry partners to transform the experience for passengers with new, faster and more environmentally friendly trains and a timetable offering record fast journey times to the major towns and cities on the route.”

The new agreement for GWR begins when the previous Direct Award contractual arrangements end on 1 April 2020 and has a three year duration to 31 March 2023 with a possible extension of up to one year at the DfT’s discretion.

As previously announced on Monday 23 March, FirstGroup welcomes and has accepted the comprehensive response of the UK Government to provide emergency support for the country’s vital rail networks during the coronavirus pandemic. These measures will provide continuity and certainty for all DfT-let rail franchises through EMAs which will last six months or longer if required. For the duration of the EMAs, the Government will take revenue and cost risk, and franchise operators will be paid a fixed management fee with the potential for a small performance-based fee.

At the conclusion of the EMA period, GWR will operate services as a franchise with revenue risk shared with the DfT through a Forecast Revenue Mechanism (‘FRM’) governed by today’s agreement, which also makes provision for a revenue rebasing exercise as required. The FRM will apply if revenue variances differ from target in the bid assumptions, outside of a nil rate band, and is available from the start of the agreement. 
Payments or receipts occur when actual revenue is 1.5% higher or lower than the expected FRM revenue, at 90% of the revenue difference.

FirstGroup, as parent company to GWR, will provide subordinated contingent loan facilities of £10m (£5m of which is bonded) and a performance bond of £10m to GWR, as well as a cash-collateralised season ticket bond of c.£35m. A wide range of scenarios were considered as part of the modelling to assess the award, including with respect to pensions, passenger demand and to the risk sharing mechanisms provided by DfT, and the Board of FirstGroup is of the view that there is an appropriate balance of risks and rewards in the agreement.

Friday, 17 June 2022

The First Airbus A321XLR Flight Could Take Place Within a Week

The A321XLR is designed to give more value for the airlines by bringing 30% lower fuel burn per seat than previous-generation competitor aircraft.

The aircraft will deliver an unprecedented Xtra Long Range of up to 4,700nm – 15% more than the A321LR and with the same unbeatable fuel efficiency.


The very first flight of the A321XLR is set to take place on Wednesday, June 15th. With the initial launch and announcement of this A320 family derivative taking place back in June 2019, the first aircraft of its kind is scheduled to take to the skies almost exactly three years from its launch.


With the added range, airlines will be able to operate a lower-cost single-aisle aircraft on longer and less heavily travelled routes – many of which can now only be served by larger and less efficient wide-body aircraft. 
This will enable operators to open new world-wide routes such as India to Europe or China to Australia, as well as further extending the Family’s non-stop reach on direct transatlantic flights between continental Europe and the Americas. 
For passengers, the A321XLR’s new Airspace cabin will provide the best travel experience, while offering seats in all classes with the same high-comfort as on long-haul widebody aircraft.

Thursday, 16 June 2022

National Express Celebrates 50 Years On The Road

National Express has good reason to celebrate 50 years on the road this year as it reports clocking up over 70% of its pre-pandemic mileage last month.


The UK’s largest coach operator has been building back its unrivalled network of intercity coach travel and is anticipating a busy summer season as demand for affordable and reliable travel grows.

Chris Hardy, managing director of National Express UK Coach, said: “The rising cost of living is hitting everyone’s pockets. We’re seeing more and more people look to us to help them be able to afford to get where they want to be - whether that's to see friends and family, go on holiday, attend events, visit attractions or get to University.


“In 1972 a ticket from London to Birmingham cost £1.20. In today’s money that would be £13.89 but the actual average 2022 price for the same journey is only £8.15, demonstrating what great value we have always offered.”

In the last two months, an increase in frequency and new routes has seen over new 2,000 services per week added to the network with further growth planned. Recent developments include services from Plymouth and Great Yarmouth to London and a new route from Canterbury to Stansted Airport launches on 10 June.
The average age of a National Express coach is three years old and every one meets the highest possible engine emission standard (Euro VI)


Hardy adds: “Coach travel has moved on immeasurably in the last fifty years. Today, journeys are quicker and more reliable and our coaches are safer and more comfortable than ever.

“Plus we’ve set ourselves a target of a zero carbon fleet by 2035 whilst continuously investing to ensure we have the newest and greenest vehicles currently available on the road, so choosing to travel by coach is good for the environment as well as the pocket.”




One full coach will take 1 mile of cars off the road, reducing congestion and carbon emissions, alongside improving air quality. The Levante III Euro VI coach is bespoke to National Express and produces an average 21.7 grams of greenhouse gas emission per passenger km, lower than both rail and car.

In the last five decades the iconic white coaches have clocked 3.8 billion miles travelling the length and breadth of the UK, connecting people and making memories.


Chris Hardy added: “We’ve have been a part of people’s lives for half a century and it’s been great hearing stories from our customers and staff, past and present - from couples who met on the coach and are now married, recollections from our long-serving drivers and coach station staff, to tales from our former jolly hostesses. I’m incredibly proud of our achievements and look forward to continuing our journey as the nation’s number one coach operator.”

The average age of a National Express coach is three years old and every one meets the highest possible engine emission standard (Euro VI)

This summer National Express is planning a number of activities in celebration of its 50th anniversary including a 50-day giveaway, the publication of a commemorative book, 'National Express: The Journey of an Iconic Brand', and events across the UK to celebrate its history and showcase the modern coach travel of today. Look out for details on the website and social media channels. www.nationalexpress.com

Wednesday, 15 June 2022

Latest Version of London Tube Map Criticised

The most recent new Tube map features 18 lines, including Thameslink, Croydon Trams, the Overground, the new Elizabeth Line and the Emirates cable car and is now being criticised as being unreadable by Dr Max Roberts, a psychology lecturer and map designer, who says TfL’s ‘just keep adding’ approach to the Tube map design' is “careless and lazy”
Read the article published on the MY LONDON website here



Thameslink, added to the TfL map in 2020, was the “final thing that broke it.”


Now the Elizabeth Line has also been added further adding to the confusion.

..

Tuesday, 14 June 2022

Go-Ahead Recommend Acceptance of Offer from BIDCO

Rail and Bus operator Go-Ahead have announced that they have reached agreement on the terms of a recommended cash acquisition whereby Bidco will acquire the entire issued and to be issued share capital of Go-Ahead.

The Acquisition values the entire issued and to be issued share capital of Go-Ahead at approximately £647.7 million.

Under the terms of the Acquisition, Go-Ahead Shareholders will be entitled to receive 1,500 pence for each Go-Ahead Share, comprising, for each Go-Ahead Share:

1,450 pence in cash (the "Acquisition Price")

and a special dividend of 50 pence per Go-Ahead Share, in lieu of a final dividend for the year ending 2 July 2022.

According to the latest announcement on the Go-Ahead website, BIDCO (GERRARD INVESTMENT BIDCO LIMITED) is a newly formed company indirectly owned by Kinetic TCo Pty Ltd ("Kinetic") and Globalvia Inversiones S.A.U. ("Globalvia") (each a "Consortium Member" and together, the "Consortium")

Since 26th May 2022 the share price of Go-Ahead has risen by 19.8 per cent.



Information on Bidco and the Consortium

· Bidco is a limited company registered in England and Wales and incorporated on 24 May 2022. Bidco was formed for the purposes of the Acquisition and has not traded since its date of incorporation, nor has it entered into any obligations other than in connection with the Acquisition. Further details in relation to Bidco will be contained in the Scheme Document.

· Founded over 44 years ago, Kinetic is the largest and fastest growing bus operator in Australia and New Zealand, with close to 4,000 buses and 6,000 employees. By the end of 2022, Kinetic is expected to be the region's largest operator of electric buses, with over 200 electric buses in operation. Having led growth and consolidation in the region over the last five years, Kinetic has established an Australasian platform across 70 depots, which now includes 35% of Melbourne's bus network, over 40% of all bus operations throughout Queensland, the largest privately owned and government contractor in Tasmania and urban services in all major New Zealand cities (including Auckland, Christchurch, and, upon completion of the acquisition of NZ Bus, Wellington).

· The Kinetic platform also includes significant long-term government contracted school services throughout New Zealand operated under the Go Bus brand, Skybus (which Kinetic considers to be Australasia's best known airport transit business) and Greyhound Resources (Australia's largest resources bus operator). Kinetic holds over 90 long-term contracts with state governments in Australia, including Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania, New South Wales, and with all major councils in New Zealand and the New Zealand government. Over 82% of Kinetic's revenue is aligned to long-term government availability-based contracts. Kinetic's executive leadership team management has over 90 years of experience in the mass transit industry. Kinetic was also recently awarded the largest urban bus contract in the region, the A$2.3 billion (c. £1.2 billion) Melbourne Bus Franchise, further demonstrating the strength and scale of its platform.

· Globalvia is a worldwide leader in the mobility industry that manages transport infrastructure concessions, specializing in highways and railways. Globalvia is committed to developing the best transport systems promoting sustainable mobility and contributing to the development of society, as well as generating a positive impact for its users and communities close to the areas where its projects are located: Spain, the U.S., Ireland, Portugal, Costa Rica, and Chile. With over 2,000 employees, Globalvia operates and maintains 26 projects, including 1,800 km of highways and 80 km of rails and metro lines. Through its technology and innovation platform Openvia, Globalvia not only invests in long-term infrastructure projects, but also develops mobility solutions.

· With international experience in infrastructure management, Globalvia is aiming to intensify its international growth strategy for the medium and long term. Globalvia seeks to proactively reinforce its diversification and international presence through being a reliable strategic partner for local administrators in promoting sustainable mobility. Globalvia is committed to creating a digital and sustainable people-centred world in collaboration with all stakeholders, offering travellers innovative solutions as 'Mobility as a Service' models integrated with railways (such as Metro de Sevilla in Spain), mobile applications to improve the experience of road users (such as the Slora app in the US, Costa Rica and Portugal) and digital corridors to enable the future of connected and autonomous vehicles in the US, Portugal and Spain.



Information on Go-Ahead

· Go-Ahead is an international transport group, connecting local communities through bus and rail services. With over 27,000 global colleagues, Go-Ahead serves bus and rail markets in the UK, Singapore, Ireland, Sweden, Norway and Germany.

· Go-Ahead operates a fleet of more than 6,000 buses across England and is responsible for a quarter of London's buses for Transport for London. Regionally, Go-Ahead serves high-density commuter markets in the North East, Greater Manchester, East Yorkshire, Oxfordshire, East Anglia and both the South East & West of England. International bus operations include Singapore, Ireland and Sweden.



· Go-Ahead operates rail franchises in the UK, Germany and Norway. Within the United Kingdom, Go-Ahead operates Govia Thameslink Railway ("GTR"), which comprises Southern, Gatwick Express, Great Northern and Thameslink. GTR is managed by Go-Ahead's 65 per cent. owned subsidiary Govia (which is 35 per cent. owned by Keolis (UK) Limited). Internationally, Go-Ahead operates rail services in Germany and Norway.

Monday, 13 June 2022

Train Fault Identified on Elizabeth Line Trains

TfL chief Andy Byford admits a fault on the new Elizabeth Line trains, but says ‘no risk’ to public.
The door of a metal box fitted on the underside of an Elizabeth Line train had blown off its hinges during testing.

London’s transport chief has confirmed reports of a fault on some Elizabeth Line trains but has said there is “no risk presented to customers or workers”.

Reports began to circulate on Wednesday that a fault had been identified on as many as 70 trains in the Elizabeth Line fleet that a whistleblower claimed could “wipe someone out”.
The issue is said to be caused when a build up of gas causes the bolts holding an equipment cover in place under the train to “explode”, blowing open the small metal door.



The issue was raised in a meeting of the London Assembly on Thursday by Assembly Member Shaun Bailey, who asked TfL Commissioner Andy Byford whether he was aware of the reports.

Mr Byford confirmed that the fault had been identified but said that the risk of injury to customers is “practically zero”.

He said: “Under very unusual circumstances - rare circumstances - this door can become detached but it is held under the train so the potential for injury to customers is practically zero because the trains run… through the central section with platform screen doors and the platform would protect customers.

“The whole fleet has been checked, there are no other deficiencies found. We are fitting secondary bolts to those doors to stop that happening again.”

Mr Byford said there is a “planned fix” which should be completed “by the end of this month”.

The equipment cover is below platform level so should not endanger
passengers if the fault occurs

The TfL Commissioner told the London Assembly on Thursday that independent engineers assessed the issue and determined that the risk was “as low as reasonably possible” and that there is “no risk presented to customers or workers”.

Reports suggested that a memo had been circulated among staff of Alstom – the company responsible for making Elizabeth Line trains – warning them to stay “as far away… as possible” from the boxes and to take no longer than four seconds to pass while working on trains.

Mr Byford said that Alstom and MTR Elizabeth Line – the contractor responsible for operating the trains – have been “extremely transparent” and that workers were “immediately” informed of the issue.

Watch BBC 2 TV for 'The Fifteen Billion Pound Railway - Inside the Elizabeth Line'. Episode 1 was shown yesterday evening, so can now be watched on BBC I Player. 
A very informative programme.

Sunday, 12 June 2022

Another New 'Coal' on Test - Talyllyn Railway

The Talyllyn Railway has carried out a trial on rape seed nuggets. This is explained by Stuart Williams, General Manager of the Talyllyn in the following video here.



The shortage of traditional coal is making life difficult for heritage railways leading to alternative fuel products being developed and tested on steam lines.

See our previous postings on this subject here and here